Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Winifred Barker

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) B E C K Y S A Y L E S 13:53, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Winifred Barker

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Lacks enough significant coverage to pass WP:SIGCOV. This kind of content might be better housed as part of a List of recipients of the Colonial Police Medal rather than in a stand alone article that can never develop due to lack of sources. 4meter4 (talk) 14:53, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I think the nominator has fundamentally misunderstood something here. Her notability has nothing whatsoever to do with her holding the CPM, a fairly minor award. She is notable because she was the head of the Women's Branch of the Metropolitan Police, and was thus by far the most senior female police officer in the UK at a time when there were very few policewomen in the world. Only four people ever held this position and they were all notable. Given the prominence of her position, there will certainly be print sources out there if anyone is able to find them. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:58, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Necrothesp That may be, but is there a source verifying that as a fact and affirming its significance? Otherwise that's an original claim which we can't make per WP:No Original Research. Ultimately we need sources saying that to prove notability.4meter4 (talk) 15:03, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote that article long before Wikipedia became obsessed with sourcing. I believe I got the information from The Times, but I can't currently get access to the website. I'll try to see what I can find, but I have provided a citation as to her post. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:14, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:14, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:14, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:14, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I cannot find any significant coverage of her at all. The sources in the article mention her only trivially: the first one is simply a death index; the second mentions her exactly once in a brief note on a timeline; the third ([1]) just says "Other women among almost 600 present were the Chief Superintendent of the Women's Metropolitan Police, Miss Winifred Barker..." and continues to list other names; the fourth ([2]) mentions her in passing ("he was to have had a chat with Superintendent Winifred Barker, head of the Island's Women Police"); and so on. The article cobbles together probably most of the trivial mentions of her out there, but none of them say anything useful or constitute significant coverage. If another article could be found that this could be merged into, I'd be in support of that, but I don't know where it would fit. Aerin17 (talk) 17:36, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Aerin17 Exactly what I was thinking. What might be better would be an article on the Women's Branch of the Metropolitan Police itself as opposed to a bunch of mini biographies. This could potentially be a subsection at Metropolitan Police as well.4meter4 (talk) 17:42, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This may have come up already, but I just had a look and she's mentioned in a Telegraph article here (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/law-obituaries/8949477/Shirley-Becke.html), but behind a paywall so I can't read it I'm afraid. Could I apologise in advance because I don't know the correct way to comment here at all, just stumbled on this. Persicifolia (talk) 19:14, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Persicifolia, I was able to access an archived version of the obituary ([3]). Unfortunately, it seems that it is just another trivial mention and doesn't particularly contribute to her notability. Aerin17 (talk) 22:00, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

comment She seems to appear on pp. 197-200 of Joan Lock, The British Policewoman: Her Story (1979). Furius (talk) 13:38, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Notable as a senior woman police office in the Met Police in the 1960s, she was also awarded the Queen's Police Medal in 1965 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/43529/supplement/32 Piecesofuk (talk) 17:45, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @Piecesofuk: Well spotted. I'd missed that one. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:05, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
~~Redirect and Merge to History of the Metropolitan Police~~ Keep - per the sources reviewed in this discussion, my own research, and the sources in the article, WP:BASIC notability ~~does not~~ appears to be established for a standalone article, ~~even with the Queen's Police Medal, and there does not seem to be a suitable article available for a merge at this time. Beccaynr (talk) 01:24, 26 June 2021 (UTC) Updated per Furius,~~ and there is a 2015 edition of the book Furius cited that may be helpful ~~for the merge generally and~~ specifically for Winifred Barker. ~~Beccaynr (talk) 13:24, 26 June 2021 (UTC)~~ Updated per sources found by SusunW. Beccaynr (talk) 06:11, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If we go down the redirect route, I think that it should be a redirect and merge to History of the Metropolitan Police (which currently doesn't mention the A4 Women's branch). Furius (talk) 10:31, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENT: There is a significant bio of her here[4] as well as other articles which confirm details of her career[5] and [6] There are 1/2 a dozen entries in this book[7], which while they are name checks, indicate she was a honoured guest at the Savoy's annual Woman of the Year luncheon, which was an exclusive event. SusunW (talk) 05:58, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I have expanded the article with the information I posted above and note that she appears to meet WP:BASIC. I think it is clear we have refuted the nominator's suggestion that the article can't be further developed. The issue here is that she lived in the pre-internet age and during the period where copyright is still in play and many sources are not digitized. I do not have access to a library, but hopefully someone can find Lock's The British Policewoman: Her Story (1979), as indicated by Furius. I also do not have access to British newspapers, other than as I indicated. Checking with editors who do, I was informed that the Gloucester Citizen which is likely where an obit of her was published, has not been fully digitized for availability on line. SusunW (talk) 15:38, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Enough independent secondary sources have been located to verify and confirm notability. Therefore my suggested course of action is to keep the article and build on it, if needed. --ARose Wolf 12:35, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.